Non-Technical PM Builds with AI at Meta: Zevi Arnovitz on Cursor & Cloud Code

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You are a product manager, shipping product, without knowing how to write code, barely knowing how to review code.

I have zero technical background, it music in high school when Sonic 3.5 came out.

I remember watching a YouTube video, building apps using bold or lovable.

It basically felt like someone came up to me and said, you have superpowers now.

These days, you're using cursor with cloud code.

If you're non-technical, like me, code is terrifying, but AI just makes so much possible.

And the next coming years, I think everyone's going to become a builder.

The titles are going to collapse and responsibilities are going to collapse.

The main challenge people have is reviewing the code that AI has written.

It's very difficult for me to catch mistakes.

What I'll do is basically slash review.

This tells cloud to start reviewing its own code.

But what's even cooler is I have codex, as well as cursor open.

I will have each of them review the code.

This comes back to this quote.

I think everyone's always hearing.

It's not that you will be replaced by AI.

It's the best time to be a junior, contrary to what a lot of people are saying, how there's no more junior roles out there.

Yeah, that's true, but also when else in history, could you get out of school and just build a startup on your own.

Today my guest is Zevi Arnoitz.

Zevi's APM at Meta, purred to that he was a PM at Wix.

And this is a truly remarkable conversation that every non-technical product person needs to hear.

It is super young and has no technical background, but as a smart young ambitious person.

Has learned how to use cursor and cloud code to build significant and real products completely on a zone and he's created his own very clever and effective workflow.

That everyone listening can copy.

To make that copying even easier, at the top of the show notes of this episode, you can download all the prompts and slash commands and start doing all of this yourself.

Zevi shows you how to work with cursor to quickly add your ideas to linear, to explore your idea with AI, how to develop your plan, how to then build the thing, and then have different LLMs review your code and update your documentation, and then use all of this as a learning opportunity to develop your own sense of how things work.

I haven't stopped thinking about this conversation since we had it, and everyone needs to pay attention to what AI is unlocking for non-technical people.

A huge thank you to Tol Reveef or encouraging me to meet Zevi.

If you enjoyed this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app, or YouTube, it helps tremendously, and if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get 19 premium products for free for an entire year, including lovable, replid, bold, gamma, n8n, linear, dev and post-talk, superhuman, descriptive workflow, complexity, warp, granola, magic pattern, drakehouse, chap, rd, mob, and stripe atlas, head and over to lenniesnewsletter.com and click product pass, with that every new Zevi, Arnowitz, after a short word for our sponsors.

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Zevi, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

Thanks for having me, Lenny.

A huge fan of the show and tons of people that I've admired most and learned the most from have been on here, so it's a crazy moment for me.

I'm really excited for this.

I really appreciate that.

I want to start by reading actually a note I got about you from Tal Reveave, who is a previous podcast guest many times newsletter, collaborator, what are the most AI forward product managers that I know I've learned a ton from him?

So here's what he said about you when he introduced us.

Zevi is the most hands-on vibe coding PM I know and I personally learned so much from him, his engineers at meta-ask him to teach them how to do what he does.

Every time we get coffee, I repeatedly get this feeling of everyone needs to be hearing this.

That's so nice.

And so that's the goal.

That's the goal of this conversation is to help more people here which you figured out.

We're going to get very hands-on.

We're going to do a lot of show versus tell showing people what you've figured out about how to be a PM, a non-technical PM, building stuff.

I want to give people a little bit of background on you because I think this is going to inspire a lot of listeners to feel like they can also do what we're about to show you.

It's going to look very advanced, but just give people a little bit of sense of just your background.

I'm very non-technical.

I have zero technical background, did music in high school, a lot of Israelis do technology units in the army.

I was not in a tech unit.

And basically a year ago, I was traveling with my wife for three months in Asia and we were in Japan and I was around when Sonic 3.5 came out.

And I remember watching a YouTube video.

I think it was either Greg Eisenberg or Riley Brown and they were basically building apps using it was either bolt or lovable, just using AI.

And it was like a crazy moment for me because I was watching this and it basically felt like someone came up to me instead.

Hey, is that either there's this cool new technology you should check out.

You should really give it a try.

Oh, and by the way, you have superpowers now.

And the second I got home from Japan, I didn't even unpack my bags, ran to my computer.

Open bolt opened an account and for the past year I've been building.

And the last thing I'll say on that is we talked about this a bit before we started recording, but I was prepping with Claude for the episode.

And I was trying to clarify what my goal is for this episode.

And Claude said, if people walk away thinking how amazing you are, you failed.

And if people walk away and open their computer and start building, you've succeeded.

So I really hope that we can inspire some people to do the same.

I love that so much.

I feel like that should be the goal from my podcast.

If you're like, I love that guest.

It's less of a way.

And if it's just like, I'm so inspired to do the thing that they figured out that is the real win.

I love Claude is the best.

I agree.

Okay, so let's dive in and give people with let's start with kind of a high level overview of how you operate and use AI in your job.

What are the core tools?

And just what's kind of like the frame of reference for the workflow that you figured out in the high up rate?

This all started where I was a project's power user.

I love projects.

GPD projects.

Yeah, exactly.

GPD projects and Claude projects, which are basically a shared folder of chats, which share both custom instructions and shared knowledge base.

And I think it was around when GPD started using memory where I thought it was interesting, but it really annoyed me because I do a bunch of different things.

Like I'm a terrible runner.

I'm a PM.

I was a student, psychology student.

So I had all these different facets of life.

And what happened was the memory feature was mixing stuff up.

So like I talked to GPD about running.

And it would be, and it would say, oh, yeah, after this 5k, you're going to crush all your next product reviews.

And it's like, I mean, okay, I understand that you have that in your memory, but it's not relevant.

And projects basically allows you to compartmentalize and have things within the right context.

So tracking back to the story I told when we came back from Japan, I started building this app.

The first thing I noticed was that these products were built in a way where, and when I say these products, I mean, bolts and loveable were built in a way where they were super eager to write code.

So their system prompt was your coding agent.

So when you write something, they just straight away start coding.

So at the beginning of a project, this was super fun and exciting because they just go and start building your app.

But later on, when things got more complex, this created much more problems, because planning is really important when you're implementing something technical.

And let's say you're implementing payments or something that's going to be a change to your database.

If the coding agent is just like, all right, I got it and just start writing code.

This always results in terrible things, some really gnarly bugs that I had.

And to mitigate this, what I did was I created sort of a CTO.

So again, I'm not technical.

I have been in product for a while, but I know zero stuff about code.

So basically what I did was I created a CTO with the custom prompt of it, being the complete technical owner of the project.

So I told it, I own the problem, I own how we want the users to feel.

You're the complete owner of how this is going to be built.

I want you to challenge me.

I don't want you to be a people pleaser.

All these things that kind of mitigate the regular chatGPTisms.

I always think about this where for some reason, the easiest way for me to think about AI is to imagine it as people.

And I think chatGPT would probably be the worst CTO because it's such a people pleaser and it's so psychophantic where, I mean, just a short story I had a few weeks ago, I was trying to learn about bun JavaScript, which is where is acquired by anthropic.

And I was trying to understand what they do.

So I was talking to GPT and this wasn't within my co-founder CTO project.

And I asked it if it's similar to a different framework that I have in my app called Zustand, which nothing to do at all with what bun JavaScript does.

And basically GPT goes, oh, yeah, it's exactly the same.

And then it started talking about what it meant.

And I was like, wait, no, these are not the same at all.

And it said, like, the most terrifying and hilarious thing goes, oh, I'm sorry.

I thought you were just making this up.

And I was riffing with you.

And I was like, oh, no, no, no, this is terrible.

So basically, if regular chatGPT was a CTO that would be the CTO, who goes along with your dumbest ideas.

So creating the project allowed me to mitigate that.

So this is just to just to be super clear, you have a chatGPT project that you've given a prompt to be your CTO of your product.

And being an on technical person, this is kind of like the thing you talk to when you don't want, and we'll get to what you're actually using to build when you have questions about architecture and decisions that are technical.

Yeah.

So now I'll show, I'll show my full workflow and I don't involve GPT anymore, but I definitely would recommend, even though the technology has gone.

So when I started this, there was no plan mode or ask mode.

It was just built on these products on on lovable and bolt.

And they've progressed a ton, a lot of what I had as workflows have become ingrained in these products, which is really interesting.

I would still recommend start with a project for first of all, the reason that I said, and also it kind of puts you in a place where you're in a chatbot and not writing code.

So you take the time to convert into learn, which I think is critical.

And the second thing is, if you're non-technical like me, code is terrifying.

It's the scariest thing in the world to look at.

And I look at it as kind of like exposure therapy.

I think if you see this where I'm working like in a cloud or in cursor, you might be excited to start using those, but I would really recommend starting slow with a GPT project, um, beautiful UI, super simple, then maybe graduate to like a bolt or a lovable, and then go to cursor in light mode, slowly, slowly, gradually, easy, and until you like open a terminal, you know, go full dark mode, go full dev.

So I would really recommend doing this gradually.

That is awesome advice.

And so just to be clear, these days you're using cursor with cloud code, powering it.

And what I love about that is that you're not, you've never written code, the way you put it, you're afraid of even looking at the exposure therapy.

And I love that cursor is useful to you.

And when you're telling us is that graduating from a chat GPT project that is kind of your technical co-founder kind of taught you enough to feel more comfortable going straight to cursor, you said that you actually went to bolt or in lovable kind of in the interim, and then you went to just straight to cursor.

What's the reason to just go straight to cursor?

Is it just cursor, cursor can do everything?

And once you get the hang of it, it's actually the most powerful tool.

Yeah, I think I graduated from each tool when I kind of outgrew it.

So bolt was awesome until I was trying to connect payments to my app.

And it kind of started losing it, and then I graduated the cursor.

And I've actually fallen in love with cloud.

So I'm using cloud code, but that also runs within cursor.

And I think this is tall who told me this, I'm not sure who is quoting, but code is just words at the end of the day.

So it's just files on your computer.

So basically you can be working on the same project and carry it from app to app.

And especially now I can work with multiple models and apps on my project.

So start slow, but definitely there's a lot of places you can graduate to.

Awesome.

Okay, should we dive into screen share showing how you operate?

Awesome.

I pulled up cursor.

Can you see it?

Perfect.

So within my code base, what you can see here on the left, these are all my code files here on the right is cursor.

So this is basically like having AI, which has access to all the code.

And here in the middle, I have cloud code running.

And what you can see here, I'm going to close cursor for a second.

What you can see here are all my slash commands.

Basically what slash commands are, they are reusable prompts that I save within the code base that I can run by writing slash and then the name of the file.

So here you can see create issue, which is the first command that I'm going to use.

And basically what this tells cloud, it says the user is mid development and thought of a bug or feature an improvement, capture it fast so they can keep working.

And then it basically says this is the format that I want you to capture the linear issue in and it explains a bunch of things what exactly cloud needs to do to get there.

So the way I invoke this is basically I'll do slash create issue and this injects this prompt into cloud.

So says I'm ready to help you to capture this issue what's on your mind.

So basically what I'll do this is if I'm working on a big project and I suddenly come across a bug or have an idea that I don't want to work on right now, but I want to work on later.

I'll do this really quick and cloud's main goal is to quickly capture what I'm thinking about.

So quickly to run through my full workflow.

So basically it starts with creating an issue.

So this is the create issue slash command, which basically tells cloud that I'm mid development and it should quickly capture what I'm thinking about and create an issue within linear.

Then later on when I want to pick this up, I have the exploration phase.

Exploration phase is basically telling cloud.

We're going to only explore what we want to solve here.

It could either pull from linear or I can just speak freely to it and what it will do is it will analyze and understand the issue and just ask clarifying questions.

The next phase after we've done finished exploration phase is we're going to create a plan.

So you can see create plan.

This basically has a template that I love for creating a plans and the output of this at the end of the day will be a marked down file with our plan that we can end up building along with code.

After creating the plan, we have execute plan.

After execution, we have review and then we have peer review, which is really cool and we'll get into later on.

At the end, we update the docs.

So this is updating documentation and everything so that agents can write better code later on.

So I think what we'll do is we're going to build a feature live for my app, which I think is really cool.

But first what I'd like to do is show you the app so you have some context.

So this is studymate.

It's a platform for students, which allows them to upload study materials and create interactive tests based on their own materials.

So here we can go to the top.

Let's upload a PDF.

We can decide what pages we want to be quizzed on.

We can decide the number of questions, the difficulty level.

And basically what happens behind the scenes is we send the information the user uploaded along with the system prompt and any other augmentations the users decided to Gemini and we create a quiz.

These are challenging questions that are meant to assess comprehension.

You even have some hints.

And once we do a few of these, we can submit.

I got them right.

It's terrible results.

And so just to be really clear about this, this is like a side business that you have an app that you're sending.

It's making money.

That's just like a thing you vibe coded everything though.

Yeah, this is my weekend project.

Yeah, this is what I do on weekends.

Yes, so you get basically deep explanations into why each question was wrong or each question was right.

And at the moment, studymate only has multiple choice questions.

And I was doing some competitor research over the last weekend.

And I saw competitors who had true or false questions and also fill in the blank questions, which I loved.

So I think that'd be really cool if we get a build that live.

I love it.

Crossing, crossing fingers this all work.

I just want to highlight the stuff you shared right before this in cursor.

So this is a huge deal which you describe here.

This is essentially what you've figured out is a way as a non a person has no idea how to write any code.

How to build a product in cursor as a product manager using the series of slash commands that you've concocted.

That you're going to be sharing with listeners.

They can download all these and just use them directly.

They don't have to figure out all these prompts that you've figured up.

Yeah, 100%.

Basically what happened was I formulated the backbone of this with the CTO.

And it was basically within the system prompt of the CTO project that I had within GPT.

So it said step one, we do this.

Step two, we do this.

And now I'll keep building and if I see something that happens over and over again, I'll just create a sauce command and then it will be automated within the workflow.

Amazing.

So just to summarize the slash command.

So one is creating an issue in linear, which I love.

Linear is awesome.

Shout out.

That's also from, yeah, the product that.

From the product fast.

Oh my god, what values?

Okay, so step one is create the issue in linear.

So it's a command.

So this prompt slash slash command you've created.

Just create issue.

Then it's explore, which is explore the idea, help me to ideate on what this could be.

And this is cloud helping you think through the feature and product.

And then it's actually create the plan.

And so it's like the AI helping you build the plan to build the product.

Then it's actually execute, which is just build the thing.

Yeah.

And then there's this review peer review step, which is awesome that you'll share.

And then there's document of the documentation based on the signature that we're adding.

So yeah, cool.

So let's go ahead and start building.

So I'm going to use whisper flow to dictate.

And basically this starts with slash create issue.

So this basically sends that prompt.

And I love this because I usually do this during when I'm building something else.

So basically, it tells cloud that I mid-building something.

And I don't have a lot of time to waste time on this.

So just ask some brief questions so that you have enough to capture within linear.

So I want to add fill in the blank questions to study mate.

I want this to be 30% of tests to be generated as fill in the blank questions.

I want there to be six potential answers for two blank spots.

And of course, there's only to be two correct answers.

So one correct answer and two incorrect answers for each spot.

And I want the interface to be drag and drop.

So that's just basically a quick think of of how I want this to work.

So it's going to ask me a few questions, quiz our 100% multiple choice, questions structure, single sentence, passage to blanks, and priority.

So one and two are correct.

And this is not high priority.

It's nice to have feature.

So now basically what cloud is going to do is it's going to use mcp, which is basically a technology that was created by anthropic, which gives AI the ability to use tools.

So this is connected to my linear.

So what it's going to do now is it's going to use everything we've said and create an issue within linear.

And by the way, as this is loading, I just love the way the way you describe this, especially doing voice mode.

It's like exactly how you would talk to an engineer describing a feature.

Here's what I want.

And then ask you questions.

Here's the clarification.

Yeah.

So at first, when I was doing this with the CTO, I would do it with Chechipity Voice Mode.

And that was crazy.

That was like literally felt like ideating with a person.

It would push back as questions.

And maybe one day, you know, the coding tools will get there too.

But that was exactly, it really felt like sitting with my CTO.

Great.

So created STU 88.

So if we open up linear now, we should be able to see.

Let's see where STU 88.

There it is.

Fill in the blank questions with drag and drop interface.

So it has a TLDR.

It has the current state.

It did a little bit of research on the code base.

I think expected outcomes, some context.

So yeah.

So this is basically ready for me to pick up when I'm interested in building.

So now let's say a few days go by.

I finished the current project I'm working on.

I can pick it up.

So when I pick it up, I do slash exploration phase, which is what we said.

And then instead of pressing enter, I'll press tab and I'll show you this.

So basically exploration phase, what it does is it will take an argument.

This is basically placeholder within the prompt, which allows me to enter something that is extra context for the AI.

So I can say here linear STU 88, which is referencing the ticket.

And now what it's going to do is it's going to go.

It's going to fetch the linear ticket.

And what's the idea?

What's the goal of the exploration phase?

This is kind of idea on the idea.

Is that the exact idea?

So it's both for this CTO to deeply understand the problem that we're trying to solve.

And also understand the current state of the code base, what files need to be affected, and how is the best way to implement this technically?

And usually what happens is right now Clouds just basically reading a bunch of files, understanding the basic structure of the code.

And then it's going to come back with a bunch of clarifying questions as that will decide how we end up implementing this.

So it's like, it feels like it's talking to your engineering manager.

Exactly.

Exactly.

100% this is this is how I think about it.

And you said that your CTO, so you used to use JGBT prompt to have a CTO in there now with the CTO's living inside here in cursor.

Yeah, because of the way the tools have developed, and they become so good at both exploration and code execution.

So now it's just kind of a habit that I call it a CTO.

But it's basically all in one.

The same agent will both do the exploration and write the plan and end up executing the code.

Got it.

So basically it's Cloud Code.

Is there like a prompt you gave it to act like that, like the rate in CTO?

Yeah.

So within the Cloud MD, which is basically the system prompt that's loaded within Cloud's context in every conversation, I have some basic stuff.

Like, this is our workflow, this is how we work with an exploration phase.

I want you to challenge my thinking.

All kinds of stuff like that.

That's also loaded yeah, within the Cloud MD file.

Cool.

And last question before before we move on here, just because I'm thinking about it as this happens.

The linear issue that you generated, how often is it?

Is it actually great and ready?

How often do you have to edit it?

Let's like the quality of the linear ticket that it generates.

Because a lot of people are like probably wondering just like all these terrible linear issues are being created by I or that actually any good.

It's completely different because I'm a company of one.

So a lot of the context is within here.

And there's no need for me to like talk to other teams and understand it's basically very accessible.

And also I can easily see when Cloud understood something wrong.

I don't want to say that I would create linear issues at work like this.

But definitely, if you're building your own side project, they're pretty quality.

And also it just kicks off the that when I want to start working on it.

It's not, I wouldn't say it's ready to be built.

It's ready to start being explored.

Got it.

So it's just a beginning of an idea.

Actually, let's come back after we go through this flow.

How you would approach this if you were at say meta or another, maybe a smaller company, how this workflow might work at a larger company that isn't just your own startup.

Yeah, interesting.

Let's come back to them.

Cool.

All right.

So this is Cloud coming back.

I have a comprehensive understanding of the codebase.

I thoroughly analyze studymate live codebase and understand the current system, feature quests, and key areas that it's identified.

Usually, I spend a lot of time going over this because this is super super important.

But just for the sake of development right now, we're going to brush through this.

Now, Cloud basically comes back after it's gone through the codebase and understood the way it currently works.

It's basically telling me what the current understanding is.

So it's talking about how the app is set up at the moment, how the data is structured, what it understood from the feature quest, and what it's identified as key areas, and then it asks me some questions.

So it's asking about the scope.

It's asking about the data model, the UXUI of the feature, how they should be validated, how it should be graded, what changes need to be happened to the AI system prompt, and all kinds of questions about the app.

I've prepared answers to all these questions beforehand because I don't think we all want to sit through this.

So I'm just going to paste that in and we'll see what Cloud says.

Awesome.

I love it.

I love it.

I love it just just scanning those questions.

They're asking.

It's like such smart sophisticated important questions.

Instead of just cool.

Here I go.

I'm going to build it.

Yeah, and I think this is the big difference between like just five coding and going along with the vibes and really building serious apps.

I spend a lot a lot of time going back and forth and understanding also a very cool slash command that I haven't showed yet is learning opportunity, which basically when something is really difficult for me to understand, all do slash learning opportunity and then talk about what I want to learn.

And this basically primes Cloud and says I am a technical PM in the making.

I have mid level engineering knowledge.

I understand the architect architecture and basically I want you to explain what we're currently working on using the 8020 rule.

So this is a great way to learn.

I would definitely take this and every time you kind of see something that you don't fully understand, I would definitely use this to learn.

Great.

So Cloud basically comes back and says how it understands the current data model and how it's going to implement.

Yeah, so it's ready to create the plan.

So basically what I'm going to do now is I'm going to go and do slash create plan.

And while Cloud's doing this, I'm going to show really quick what this looks like.

So basically these plans are from a template that I found on Twitter.

I forgot who it was, but it was just a template that really resonated with me.

And it's basically saying based on our exchange, create a Markdown file that will be the plan.

Include clear minimal concise steps, track the status.

So this basically has like status trackers on each task that Cloud updates as it's going through.

And it will have a TLDR, some critical decisions that we've made and the plan itself.

So Cloud's finished writing the plan.

So we'll be able to look and see exactly what the plan is.

So it has a TLDR.

It has the critical decisions we've made and the tasks broken down.

And this is a perfect plan.

And it's also a really good way to write this because a lot of times all use different models to execute certain stuff.

So cursor has an amazing model called Composer, which is super fast.

So a lot of things that are not that complex.

I'll use Composer.

Gemini III that just came out is unbelievable at UI.

So a lot of times I'll split the plan into back and in front in and then I'll have Gemini just read the plan and do the front end.

So having this is a Markdown file is really good.

And also going forward, it's really good to have within the app so that later on if an agent is writing code in a certain area, I can see what's already been done there.

So what we're going to do now is we're going to execute the plan.

So now I think we're going to do this with cursor just because Composer is so freaking fast.

So what we can do is basically just say execute and then we can tag the file and Composer is ridiculously fast.

So that's it.

It's off.

It basically understands what the plan is and it's going to go ahead and start writing the code.

Let me ask you a question while this is happening.

And awesome.

Have many questions so this is a good time to ask if you have them.

You said that lovable and bold are in other other apps in that space or are just not enough to build really serious apps and you have to move to cursor to do that.

What tells more about that just like how far with what's going to the limitation you ran into with those products and why you switched to cursor.

I started using cursor and cloud code a few months ago and I haven't looked back but at that time these teams have been moving like crazy.

So I don't want to say I wouldn't trust them.

I don't know what the current state is.

But for me it was basically the issue of I felt that that bolt was being very opinionated on how I should do things and I felt like my knowledge has gotten to a point where I can graduate and be more in control.

By the way, I think that the main difference between all these tools is basically the harness.

So the models are all the same models.

You know, I all run cloud within cursor, I'll run it within cloud code and it's also the models that cloud is also the model that is underlying bold and lovable.

But basically, bold and lovable will add a bunch of levels in the middle that will take all kind of guesswork and hard decisions out for the user.

So the user doesn't make it have to make these hard decisions.

So it's also very easy to build.

But the flip side of that is that you have less control.

And basically, cloud code is just taking cloud and shoving it straight in your code system and giving it full tools and to do whatever it wants.

But also, with that comes a lot of decisions that you need to make.

So I don't know if you can't build really amazing production apps using, using bold or lovable now.

But I think basically, if you want the most cutting edge abilities of the models and you want to be able to make all the decisions on your own, it's probably best to be on one of these tools.

What I'm feeling in hearing is the planning work that you did.

That's the stuff that lovable bold and would you put a replicate in that bucket too?

Yeah, for sure.

Loveable bolts, replet, base 44.

Yeah, v0 all same bucket.

So essentially, they're kind of, they're doing that planning for you.

And as you said, they're very pinnated.

They're trying to make it easy.

So it's just like, here's how to do it.

We're not going to, like, here's the way we want to.

We think is best for people.

And what you're saying is once you're trying to get a little more serious about it or how want to go in a different direction, you don't have the power to change the how they plan.

So cursor, let's you do that.

Yeah, I don't want this to come out like I'm bad.

Mouthing them base 44.

Let's say, yeah, base 44 does an amazing job at basically taking all the complex guesswork out of building product and just allows you to just, you know, go with the vibes and build.

But it will do signing with Google for you.

And it will do a database.

But then you don't have decisions on what database am I using?

Do I need to sign in with Google this way or the other way?

It will just do it out of the box.

So that's basically the trade off there.

Awesome.

Shout out, Mayor, the founder of base Amazon.

Yeah, yeah, easy.

Okay.

I just love how this is like the way you're like flinging with the word slinging, slinging models like Gemini 3 for front.

I love that you have never written any code.

And you're just like always jumping out for this and claw for this.

And I'm just working on cursor talking to this CTO helping you build stuff and build like significant product.

Yeah.

I mean, we just live in the craziest of times where basically they're the world changes once a week.

It feels like and there is just no boundaries.

You can you can use all of these just on your like regular MacBook or regular laptop.

And I have these moments.

I call them time machine moments, which is basically this week.

For instance, I was prepping for the podcast using Cloud with a project.

I was building.

I was fully localizing a studymate from Hebrew English, which I did in two days, which would probably take a dev team weeks.

And I was building a personal site, which went from no domain, no nothing to live on a domain within an hour and a half.

And I was doing all three of these in parallel.

And there was a point where basically all three of the agents were running.

So I didn't have anything to do.

I just had to let them think.

And these are like the time machine moments where I feel like I was in the future.

And I just stick my head out of the time machine.

And whoever's next to me, like at the moment, it was my wife.

I'll just say, we live in the future.

And she'll be like, huh?

What?

I don't know the story about it.

But it's just basically so crazy that all these things are just, you know, an API away.

You can you can use anything.

So I think it's an awesome time to be curious and optimistic and hardworking.

These are my favorite kinds of podcast guests.

People that are living in the future, figuring out all these things.

And then they're just kind of come back.

As you said, put your head out of the rocket ship.

And just like, hey, here's this thing that I figured out.

Here's where we're going.

Yeah, that's time to be alive.

So awesome.

So it looks like it's finished.

So now we're going to do is we're going to run the app locally.

And we'll be able to see what composer ended up building.

And we're going to see if anything else is needed on our end to maybe do some manual review.

Is that sound good?

Sounds great.

And I love that was like, I don't know, few minutes where if it was a human engineer would be like days, maybe a week before.

Yeah, for sure.

Now a composer like the one thing is it's just so, so blazing fast keeps you in flow.

So yeah, full features take minutes.

And then that's like a couple bucks in AI credits.

I don't even look.

I mean, I used to be so stingy about paying for products.

And now I'm just basically, I look at it all as tuition, you know, as like stuff that I'm paying for learning.

So I don't know how much it costs, but it's definitely worth it.

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So now we have this feature which basically we built and I can ask it to make some changes because it's running locally and once it's ready, I'll be able to ship it to users.

So now the next phase after I've queued it and basically tested it manually, I'll have Claude review its own work.

So what I'll do is I'll reopen Claude code.

I love this because this is one of the things that comes up a lot in this podcast is writing code is now so easy.

The main challenge people have is reviewing the code that AI has written and what you're doing here is you're having Claude review its own code.

Yeah, so this is another thing where it's very difficult for me to catch mistakes.

So my review process has gone through a bunch of iterations to really be as good as possible and to catch as many things as possible.

So I'll always manual to manually queue it first to make sure if I can see any mistakes that Claude made.

And then what I'll do is basically slash review and this tells Claude to start reviewing its own code.

But what's even cooler and something that I'm really proud of is I will usually do multiple reviews and I'll have codex, which is chat you be keys competitor to Claude code as well as cursor open and I will have each of them review the code.

And then what what I do is I have a slash comment called peer review, which is really interesting.

And basically what it does is it's going to take Claude, which is usually the agent why I'm working with and just to put this in a mental model.

This is basically my my definitely that I'm working with.

I will take the slash command is basically saying you're the deadly on this project.

Other team leads within the company have looked at your code and reviewed it and found these issues.

Don't take what they what they said at face value.

The reason is you have more context than them and you let this project.

You need to either explain why the stuff they found are not real issues and wrong or fix them yourself.

And it's really cool because the way I look at these things is I look at the models I try to imagine them as people and I can I can really tell you how each one of these would be as as a real human.

Yeah, each model has such distinct characteristics.

So let's say Claude, she would be the perfect CEO.

Like she's very communicative.

She's very smart.

She doesn't just go with the flow and do whatever you tell her.

She's very opinionated but also super collaborative, which is I think why I'm always drawn to Claude because I need to do so much learning and like it's your dream a very communicative but very opinionated dev lead.

But then there's also codecs.

So I use codecs 5.1 max whatever I don't know they're not the best at naming models but GPT's model.

I always imagine it as like a the best coder within the company who comes to the office like with a hoodie and sandals and sits in a dark room and you basically only bother him when you have the worst bugs and you say listen we have this bug and it will just close the door for two hours and come out and say I fixed it and you're like wait what you're going to tell us what happened or what I was like don't worry about I fixed it.

It's like really not communicative but it solves all the worst problems and let's say Gemini is like a crazy scientist who's super artsy super talented at designing but if you sit next to it and watch it work it's terrifying like you would fire that person instantly this might be just my experience but when I'm using Gemini within Antigravity which is Google's new competitor to cursor when it's writing code you can see the steps it's taking and it's terrifying like you'll say I want you to redesign the top of the dashboard and and you're looking at its thought process and it will say oh first things first I'll delete the dashboard and then it'll be like nope that was a mistake I'll bring it back and then it will say oh can I edit the database and you're like no do not edit the database you're just doing a redesign and then it will end up designing something beautiful so the like the way there is like a roller coaster and very scary but at the end of the day Gemini is very good at design so I think that using all these models and basically playing to their strengths and mitigating their weaknesses by using other models is is a game changer for me so I'll do peer of you a bunch of times and and I'll have other models review other models code and kind of have them like fight it out basically like sometimes a claw coat will get really sassy and be like this has been raised for the third time and for the third time I'm telling you this is not an issue this is by design so it's just a really cool cool thing that I've added and I haven't seen many people doing it that is such an incredible rant slash wait to understand what's going on okay I'll some so we just ran the review says show us what we saw there and let's actually try this peer of you I'm really excited to see what you learn today yeah so basically clawed has reviewed its code and it's found a bunch of bugs a critical bug you found in the prompt uh some high bugs some medium bugs and now what I'll do is I'll do the same thing with the other models so codex has a built-in code review that you can do or I just like to say review uh all the code in this branch of course branches are referring to the GitHub branch that we're working on uh we're not working on the live code base and then I'll do this with composer say with we can do let's do it with with composer one so I'll do a slash review here as well and basically these are both going to run and do a in-depth review similar to what clawed does but again because of the differences between the models they're all going to catch different things and they're all going to look differently and this is a really cool way to work it's basically if you had other team leads within the company review the code here you can see how fast composer is I think GPT probably will take a bunch of time like I said it's in his own dark room right now reviewing code and we'll come back in a few minutes okay we can let these run and we don't actually have to go through the whole process but as the idea once you get these results you run peer review and you you copy and paste kind of these results is that they exactly all copy and paste the results I'll do peer review and then I'll say dev lead one and then paste from one of the models and then I'll say dev lead two and paste from the other model and basically have them uh fight it out until I feel like we have no more issues um for me this is super important because I'm not a not technical and I'm not a developer and I'll also use slash learning opportunity a bunch during this to learn about stuff that I don't understand or don't fully grasp incredible what a what a clever solution to solving this code review problem where it's like I don't know why you I don't I don't know how to recode so what am I gonna even yeah okay incredible let's uh let's wrap up this kind of this workflow is there anything else that's important in this workflow and again all this stuff is going to be available people can just plug this stuff into their cursor account and and use it themselves 100% um the one thing I'll say is that I think just like working in general with AI and even just like uh working on any product doing constant post-mortems is critical so a lot of times we'll find all these kind of bugs or maybe Claude will fail to execute something correctly and at the beginning when I started by coding I would basically just keep running at it like running at the wall and until it worked and once it worked I was like all right awesome this works let's keep going but I've learned over time that updating documentation and tooling is one of the biggest hacks for productivity so when Claude will fail to do something or I'll see this really bad bug that that shows that Claude really did understand something I'll ask it what in your system prompt or tooling made you make this mistake and Claude will kind of like go introspective and think of what made it do create that mistake and then I'll say okay great let's update your tooling and documentation so that this mistake never occurs again and I do this every time I'm either building an internal tool or anything and I think this is just like working you know if you've you end up doing a bunch of mistakes and then end up releasing the feature to users so you're like all right it's a big success but going back and even when you've succeeded looking and understanding what you did and what you could have done better is critical and also using AI this is probably one of the biggest unlocks going back to your prompts understanding what was not good enough iterating on them and then seeing how AI's responses get better I think that's probably one of the most important things and one of the things that divides between people who are like okay with using AI and the people who actually know how to use it.

That is such a good advice so what I'm hearing is when you run in when the models do something dumb make a mistake you ask it to reflect on what the mistake it made was and then you update these slash command prompts with that knowledge so that in the future it's not making that same mistake and it just keeps getting better these things just keep it smart and smarter so you're building up this really incredible prompt that just gets better and better.

Exactly not always the slash commands it will sometimes update different documentation or it's tooling but basically it's understanding what the root cause of the mistake that the AI made and fix it.

Awesome so it's not so like the models are getting smarter and then there's also the other parts of your work flow can get smarter as you as you find flaws in the way that stuff.

100% yeah amazing okay is there anything else there before I move in a couple of other directions?

I think that's it I think we covered pretty much everything basically just to wrap this up what I do is I do a bunch of code review and then update the documentation so that everything is documented so the next time I try to build a feature in this area there will be any mistakes and then I'll do a bunch of testing I'll do some user testing as well before I release this to general availability obviously we're not going to release this this was just to show but hopefully maybe by the time the podcast comes out I'll I'll have done this correctly and release the feature.

It's incredible that this was not possible like I don't know two years ago maybe a year ago like you were a product manager shipping a product without knowing how to write code barely knowing how to review code you said you're afraid of looking at code as a product manager you're building a product in cursor using all of these different AI models you're making money with this product this is like we're so used to this now but it's insane what is now possible so that's time to be alive 100% I think that I understand the fear but AI just makes so much possible just a quick side note here my brother who I'm building one of the apps with is an entrepreneur he has a beautiful business that helps old people and seniors understand to use technology and AI better and he's basically doing the same kind of learning as me and he's replaced all of the tools he was paying for I think he's paying for Zapier and Air Table and he's basically built like a full-fledged CRM system and automation system for his business completely alone so I mean for the people who are curious optimistic hardworking this is the best time to be to be a builder and what I love about this conversation we're having years it feels like the biggest barrier for a lot of people is like how do I get started what exactly do I open up cursor looks very intimidating I don't know how to write code I don't know how to build stuff I don't know about databases and so you're going to be sharing all these slash commands and basically this whole workflow with the audience yeah okay and like I said just started GPT start in GPT tell you what your idea is tell us to explain to you what are even the first steps of thinking what are the decisions you need to make and just be like be inquisitive learn don't rush things it's very important to just dive in and really spend a time to learn and you share this one of your slash commands is learning opportunity and it's how you learn a lot of these things just like teach me this thing and file this database issue works exactly okay there's a couple directions that want to make sure we touch on what is coming back to a question asked earlier about how this might work at a larger company say it's not like meta but just like I don't know if thousand person company 500 people how much of this can you plug and play into a workflow as a PM at a larger company what would be your advice for someone that may want to start trying to ship code at least showing people what's possible I think that first making your code base AI native is a really important step and I think this needs to be done by technical people so basically my code base has a ton of just plain text in it so it will have a bunch of markdown files that explain to agents how to work in certain areas of the code base and high level structure so that the agents navigate through the code base easier and I think that if this is set up in a really good way I still don't think like PM should be shipping heavy database chain migrations or any like big project but you know contained UI projects especially if you just build it create the PR and send it to a dev to like do the final finishes I think that's definitely something that's possible and I think we're going to see that a lot in the next coming years I think basically everyone's going to become a builder so should be really interesting okay so your advice here is as a PM don't maybe don't go rid of the cursor start building shipping trying to ship features to production especially complicated features do you think we'll get there do you think like in a couple of years PMs will be doing this and it'll feel less scary and crazy if there are PMs yeah I think titles are going to collapse and responsibilities are going to collapse and everyone's just going to be building I definitely think that the models the context windows getting bigger the models are getting smarter and I definitely see how PMs or any other background can be writing at the moment I wouldn't wait for that I would use this as a collaborative learning opportunity to work with your dev team it's going to be difficult a lot of developers are very very skeptic about the current state and I think that it's going to be a lot of sales work on your end to convince but if you're able to convince and I think teams that are really sold on this and want to take the time to work on their workflow about how can our team become more AI native I think that these teams are going to probably be a few years in the future and they're going to look back at the few weeks they spent setting this up as the best time to spend let me ask you another question around just the job of a PM one of the biggest fears people have with these AI tools for for PMs for every function I imagine is just they you start to rely on these things your skills start to atrophy you're producing all this slop that looks great cool amazing strategy document it's actually not at all good or these linear tickets or just products that are like half baked what's your take on kind of these two parts of just like how is this impacted your craft does the PM do you feel like this is weakening your skills because you're so reliant on these tools and just how do you keep the quality of this stuff up and not just like man it's just a bunch of AI generated it's all I have a very strong disagree to to this and I've heard a bunch I remember when I started using tower of Eve has like this whole course on on building a PM copilot using projects which is probably one of the best courses that you can take and when I started working with my own copilot I remember people at work looking and saying like oh so you're basically outsourcing your thinking and to me that's just the worst way to look at it and I think for some reason these people usually have a high correlation with the kind of person who doesn't like to show their presentation when it's only 10% done or doesn't want to ask for help a lot I think that there's a misconception with a lot of PMs that the job is always having the right answers and being the smartest person in the room and at least how I was trained and how I believe the role of the PM is it's the exact opposite it's basically harnessing anything that can get us as quick as possible to delivering the the right solution to users and I just think this is like that really smart person that has context or your mentor or whatever but it's just always available and doesn't judge you and can really help you so if you're using it to just create your outputs and then putting them out there I mean yet it's AI slot but it's also human error I think it's really important that you own your own outputs if you put anything out there or show something in a product review and you say oh sorry that was built by AI that's that's your mistake I think if you use these intentionally and and really take the time to understand how to use AI in the correct way it's one of the biggest game changes that will make you much better as a PM and another thing here is that especially for more junior PMs it allows you to play at such a higher level than you would normally like I think that at Wix I wasn't thinking of what's the marketing strategy of the company and how will the onboarding be completely revamped within the all of the whole product but I mean on my side product I can just do whatever decisions I want and think of this strategy in marketing and the messaging and this is basically just getting me reps which is one of the most important things at the beginning of your career so I understand the fear that you know how to you outsource certain stuff and you're not owning 100% of everything but I think the upside is so much more valuable and I think the only way that AI makes you worse at your job is if you're using it wrong.

Is there anything that you've learned about reducing the the sloppiness the sloppiness of the output just like a tip for keeping the quality high of the stuff that it produces?

Similar to people setting up AI for success for the task at hand so like if I just brought in you know a junior to to write a deck or something and I didn't give it any guideline I just said give a strategy deck he would probably just go online and find you know top strategy deck and and just reproduce that which is basically what AI is doing is basically just fed all of the internet so instead of that guiding it and giving it context on what your style of writing is and what you're trying to solve and all these different things I think that's probably one of the biggest on locks so that's just a quick tip and also cursor has slash command called the slopp which is basically going back over the code.

I don't know if this is integrated into the product yet but it's on Twitter their founders have been talking about this so that's definitely something I would run after just to make sure that no no slopp is left behind.

That's so funny.

Okay one more question which mainly does something else but kind of going in a whole different direction you used AI to help you actually interview for the job that you got at meta talk about how you did that because a lot of people right now are struggling to find a job reading about all these people using AI to help them interview you actually did it.

What did you use what worked?

I think the analogy here is I have 12 pieces of nephews and you can see how people who have grown up in a different world how their mind is formed differently so if you ask me how do you answer a phone I'll do this but a child now when you say how do you answer the phone they'll they'll do this you know they'll do the the iPhone answer and I feel like people who are growing up now in their professional lives were the same just with AI so every time I'm faced with a new challenge or problem I think AI first how to solve it so a meta reached out and said they'd like me to interview straight away I opened up a project within cloud I started looking online for all the best information out there things that I resonated with I took a ton of frameworks and and stuff from Ben Eras who's written a guest post for you who I think is one of the best minds out there right now and basically I created a project which was my coach which I would come and consult what to do at each phase I would mock interview with and this was amazing also I created a game in base 44 which helped me I was really struggling with segmentation within the product questions so thinking of the correct segments so I basically just created a quiz game which creates questions and different segmentations and I have to choose so this was like I spun this up it's so a web app that I would play sometimes when I was on the bus to work so basically uh I think Ben talks about this a bunch so I don't like just go with every Ben stuff but just creating a project and feeding it with all the best information on the internet and then mocking a bunch I will say that the biggest game changer for me was doing human mocks so called outreaching to people on LinkedIn and having them do actual mocks for me I think that at the end of the day especially for the meta PM prep which is super competitive and difficult I think there's no there's no way to get around that that is so cool they use that post I wasn't aware we're gonna link to it and in that post Ben shares all these prompts you can feed chat to BT to help you prepare for interviews do mocks online it's a really important point to say that those are take you to a point but it's actually better to use humans actually have a post coming out soon in collaboration with nom's ago about how everyone's using AI to interview and one of the most interesting ways I've heard people and that we found in this research was that people use it to get feedback they record the interview and then it gives them feedback here's where you could know better here's what you here's what you missed because the feedback loop is so missing no whatever tells you here's what you did badly in this interview no one tells you that and yeah can do that so I'll add two things to that one which is exactly this so I'll mock with AI also I did something really cool where there's a question bank online free by Lewis Lynn which basically is in always updating a bank of questions that people are asked in real interviews and I basically used a comet which is the perplexities browser and I had the agent run all kinds of analyses on like what the most asked questions are and that's how I knew how to prioritize what questions I would mock and then at the end of these mocks I would tell Claude within the project you're my coach and I don't want you to make me feel good I want you to make me as ready as possible for these interviews so give me feedback like you said and the other thing that I did was really cool was some questions where I didn't have time to mock I would ask Claude to play the candidate and then it would just give me a really good answer and I could also learn from that like learning from someone who does a perfect answer oh man I really love the way you phrase that that people kind of in your generation the default is I have something I need to do what let's go to AI immediately and help me prepare for this thing help me figure it out yeah and this comes back to this quote that I always think about which I think everyone's always hearing but I just it's such an important quote that it's not the ULB replaced by AI it's for a long time it's ULB replaced by someone who's better at using AI than you I agree and that's what these conversations are for to help people keep up with all that and to learn some of these skills and again see where the future is going and start to learn how to get there yourself okay Zaby before we get to a very exciting lighting round I'm going to take us to a recurring segment on this podcast I call failure corner and why I love this segment is people come on this you know just even this conversation it's like all these amazing things you figured out everything's going so well people rarely hear the things that don't go well and those are often the most interesting in impactful stories so the question is just what's a what's the story of a time you failed in your career and what did you learn from that experience yeah I love this I love this I love failure corner big big fan so I'll tell a story about when I started at WIC so basically I started within WIC's student program and straight out of the student program you get put into a certain team so I was in the editor which is the core product of WIC's and the other PM's were just the best PM's almost at WIC's like this four other people had much more experience than me and they were ridiculously good and I remember coming in and thinking like my first product review I'm going to blow these people socks off they're not going to believe how good of a PM I am and I basically didn't really share what I was thinking I would work tons of hours alone and I was like I'm going to kill this product review they're going to be so impressed and I ended up failing miserably my product review was not good it wasn't the format they expected they had a ton of questions that I missed and I felt awful when it was it was over I was like you're such an idiot and I saw that everyone was like all right cool yeah just come back into WIC's and and we'll keep we'll keep getting at this and I understood in that moment that they had zero expectation of me being a 10x PM but the expectation of me was being a 10x and the second I understood that my whole mindset switch shifted and I think this is probably the best tip that I give now to junior PM's is basically be the best learner you can be at the beginning no one expects you to know all the answers and no one expects you to be good so basically what I did was I took each person on the PM team there was four other PM's and I assessed what their strength is and use them as a mentor for that so Neri was still my mentor till today he has the best product sense of anyone I met oh yeah is super she's like a methodology export expert she just thinks in frameworks yara who is that a product basically can look at a product and then instantly understand like the third and fourth order effects of them system thinking so every time I had an issue with one of these areas I would come to one of them and consult them and this is two things first of all I learned a ton and the second thing is that when the next time the next product review my success felt to them like their success because it wasn't this kid who's trying to show us up how cool is it was like our mentee kind of making us all proud and it was such a great shift for me and basically at the end of the day I really excelled through this and it was an awesome story and it's connected this idea of learning is such a good the red throughout this whole conversation that AI is good at getting stuff done but it's also really good at helping you learn how to do the thing and to be this partner the stop partner the way you talked about the interview process you went through and this learning learning opportunity slash demand so awesome great story Zevi okay before we get to a very exciting later on is there anything else that you wanted to share anything you want to leave listeners with yeah so kind of to tie back into the first thing I said where if people walk away thinking Zevi so cool then then then I failed here I think that it's just the best time to be alive I think it's the best time to be a junior contrary to what a lot of people are saying how you know there's no more junior roles out there and people get out of school and you you can't find a role yeah that's true but also when else in history could you get out of school and just build a startup you know on your own with a couple of friends completely bootstrapped and I see more and more people towards mind towards the end of the time and my time at Wix I was interviewing and I saw more and more people building their own stuff with AI and I think contrary to what a lot of people think it's the best time to be a junior it's the best time to be a learner and I think if any listener is listening to this and you're curious person you're a hardworking person I want to say kind I'm not sure but if you're a kind person and a good communicator you have such an unfair advantage and you can give more value to companies than most people who have 20 years of experience so I really hope people get inspired by this and start killing it with their projects amazing so many ways to be inspired from this conversation so with that we reached our very exciting lightning round I've got five questions for you are you ready yep what are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people so I'll I'll take one from each kind of genre so in like fiction I love the found head by Ayn Rand one of my favorite books really makes you think really makes you feel business books I'm a big fan of shoot dog the Nike story I love shoot dog and then more on like the psychology side mindset by Carol Duick who coined the term growth mindset it's just such an amazing book it kind of sounds like a self-help book but then you understand that it's completely psychological and is based on research and that book completely changed my life really I was always with a fixed mindset and then after reading that I kind of understood that it was something holding me back and since then I've been really really trying to cultivate a growth mindset so I really recommend that for on reading that again connects to that thread of the way described it being in 10x learn nervous as a 10x doer okay next question favorite recent movie or tv show you have really enjoyed yeah actually my my wife is really into film so we watch a lot of tv it's probably our favorite together time I just finished watching the pit which was amazing it was really good and the my first recommendation to everyone is if you haven't seen severance run to see severance one of my favorite shows is there a favorite product that you have recently discovered that you really love is a good question I'm always trying new products like I'll always have three or four browsers I'm installed on my computer and all this different kind of stuff and I recently discovered a loom alternative I was kind of disappointed with loom they were taking so much money and the product I don't know I just didn't love it and there's an open source alternative called cap which is just really well crafted you can see that the person was like really sweating to details and it's just a really really great alternative so I've been using that recently there's also a product called super cut that I love that's also a loom alternative shout out okay do work questions do a favorite life motto that you find yourself coming back to and work her in life yeah I'm kind of between two right now one which is like become a twitter meme basically which is you can just do things I feel like that is basically going always in my head every time I do something that I'm just shocked at the speed and inability to do things now so you can just do things and the second one I stole from my brother his motto is nobody knows what the fuck they're doing and I just love that and I think it kind of makes you take life more lightly so yeah nobody knows what the fuck they're doing I think people see these companies on the outside and it feels like everything they've got all figured out and if you're ever on the inside of a company that's doing really well you're like how is the staying on the rails how is the still a thing that is working doesn't make any sense all about the whole work yeah okay last question you've been you've had a long entrepreneurial thread threat your career there's a couple other real world businesses you've started in the past you did a thermal clothing business and then like a hummus delivery thing so if you pick one of those and just tell the story of what that's about yeah I'd love to really fun that you ask about this so I'll tell the thermal clothing because I think it's really cool so in high school I was selling thermal clothes in 10th grade for for one of my sister's friends or something and basically it was just packs of thermal clothing shirt and pants I grew up in Jerusalem so it's a bit chilly there so it was perfect for for the weather and in 10th grade when I was selling them they were like 20 $25 a piece and I was making like $4 a sale and if you look in the food chain I was like 6th or 7th down the line so this was like crazy margins so during the summer I thought about it like I should just go straight to the importer so throughout the summer I called the importer and at first it was really really mad he was like no you have to work for me for years to get to this state and I said listen man I'm finishing school soon this is not going to be my career either do it or not and we basically negotiated throughout the whole summer and this was also like how I did things before chat GPT so he would like throw out something he'd say oh the import tax has gone up and I'll just search Google like import tax Israel and like start reading and I'll be on the phone with him and I'll be like hey I would just basically stall and then I'd somehow come back with a with a challenge and I ended up getting a really great price like $12 and $1 a piece so I was making like Andre's in profit and I spread throughout a bunch of different schools each school I had the coolest people in school selling for me and then a really fun thing that I did was we had a really awesome basketball team and like our basketball team would basically be 30 points up within the first half and it kind of got boring for the crowd so I wrote a song like a basketball chant about thermal clothes that basically has my number within it and like the end of it was um if you join in now we'll give you a discount and it like it was with drums and everything and still when I go to Jerusalem I know like some people who I don't even know like know my number by heart because they know it by the tune and sometimes when I walk into some people stop me and say like hey it's thermal savvy so that was just a really cool experience um as a kid and it's like explained so much such a just a marketing genius of that move oh man okay savvy this was incredible two final questions where can folks find you if they want to reach out maybe follow up on some of the stuff we'll link to the scripts and prompts and all that in the show notes so so you don't have to read that and then how could listeners be useful to you awesome um so I've been helped throughout my whole career a ton so I love helping anyway I can so reach out on LinkedIn or on X I really love to help whoever I can how can you use use listeners be useful to me so if you're a student try study mate tell me what you think if you're an Israel and you're not using dictation yet try the words to text tell me what you think amazing I just love how much how much are giving away and how useful it's going to be to so many people so again we'll link to that in the show notes Xavier you're awesome thank you so much for being here thank you so much for sharing so much this is going to help I think a lot of people and I think it's going to help people get over the humble I'm okay I see all these people doing cool stuff here's how I can actually do this stuff so thank you so much for being here for sharing so much thank you for having me and if you build something cool with some stuff that I learned here so hit me up send me I'd love to see amazing Xavier thank you so much for being here thank you bye everyone thank you so much for listening if you found this valuable you can subscribe to the show on apple podcasts Spotify or your favorite podcast app also please consider giving us a rating or leaving review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast you can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at Lenny's podcast dot com see you in the next episode